February 24, 2022
Healthy Relationships & Human Trafficking
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Can you recognize the signs of human trafficking? Would you know what to do to support someone who is being victimized by a trafficker? February 22 is National Human Trafficking Awareness Day, so this week we’re discussing prevalence, signs, and what you can do if you or someone you know is at risk.
Call the Canadian Human Trafficking Hotline: 1-833-900-1010. Or chat online at www.canadianhumantraffickinghotline.ca
And don’t forget to go back and listen to Episode 147: How to Help Someone in an Abusive Relationship
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Rough Transcript:
This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Healthy Relationships & Human Trafficking
Participant #1:
You’re listening to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast, Sex and Relationship advice you can use tonight. Welcome to the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast. I’m your co host, Brandon. We’re here with my always lovely other half, Dr. Jess. Hey. Getting lovelier by the day because I just had a birthday. You did? So you’re extra lovely today. Yeah. That’s how I’m going to frame it. Yeah. February is a big day for me. And Brandon was February 12, but I missed it. I was away. That’s okay. I mean, I cried a little bit, but then I was okay. You got over it. I got over it. You got over it. So moving through February very quickly and February 22, just a few days ago, was the International Data End Human Trafficking. And if you’re on my IG, you know, I’ve been working with the Canadian Center to End Human Trafficking to just raise awareness because really I have a lot to learn. And I was reading through some of their recent research. And I have to say the findings don’t surprise me because I fall into the vast majority around 77%, who don’t know how to recognize the signs, especially the more subtle ones. And I don’t think I would know how to respond if someone I saw, if I was concerned about someone, especially if it was someone I didn’t know. And I’ve been learning as we go. So we’re going to be talking about human trafficking and sex trafficking today, including what it is, how to recognize the signs, and how we can all be a part of the solution. And just before we get started, I want to be really clear that we’re not confusing trafficking with sex work because somebody brought that up on IG. And I know there are some folks who conflate the two, but I think, you know from listening to this podcast that we know that sex work is real work. We have sex workers on our show sharing their perspective on all things. So before we get started, I just want to make that very clear. When we’re talking about human trafficking, sex trafficking, we’re talking about coercion into doing things against your will. And we’re talking about solutions and support that have to be centered on the needs of trafficking victims and survivors who are really the ultimate experts. And I know the Canadian Center to End Human Trafficking is focused on centering these voices reflecting the voices of those they serve and their campaigns and services really reflect this. So we’re going to dive in. But one more thing, one more important piece of housekeeping. If this is a topic that feels like it might be distressful for you, I can encourage you to pause, maybe take a break, perhaps save it for later or skip it altogether if it feels like too much. And if you’re feeling distressed or triggered by the topic and need support because perhaps you’ve been affected by trafficking, you can call the Canadian Human Trafficking Hotline as well at 1833 910. So just putting it out there because obviously we want you to feel safe and supported. And having said that, I think we can dive right in. Now. Julia Drydock joins us now. She is the executive director of the Canadian Center to End Human Trafficking. They are a national charity dedicated to ending all types of human trafficking across Canada. And Julia has a really extensive background in community engagement, in policy development and advocacy, public education, working, and really complex social issues, including trafficking. So, Julia, thanks so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me here today. I’m excited to learn from you because I was reading some of your research papers. I’ve been following some of the campaigns that the center has been putting out in the press, and it’s new to me. So first, I’m curious how you got involved with the Canadian Center to End Human Trafficking and why this work is so important to you. Yeah. So the organization was founded in 2016, and in 2019, we launched the Canadian Human Trafficking Hotline. So we’re really still a pretty young organization. So I got involved just around 2019 actually is the manager of research and policy. And what always drew me to the issue was, number one, the wicked complexity of why it exists. It really gets to some of the root causes of inequality and also like patriarchy and sexism. But I also find that the resilience and the power of the survivors, be it sex trafficking survivors or labor trafficking survivors, is just something that is so inspiring and humbling to be around. And it really kind of drives you every day to do the best work you can possibly do and to be part of being a catalyst for change. Thank you for that.
You know, when we think about trafficking, I have certain ideas in my head, and it’s definitely easy to move through your life. I live in the city of Toronto, and then I think even across Canada, without realizing that it’s happening around us. So first, can you help us to understand what is human trafficking? What does it entail? So the media, movies make you think this is something where people are being smuggled across borders, forcibly confined, where they’re really kind of being, like, physically controlled and beaten and forced into the commercial sex market, when in reality, it’s far more subversive than that. More often than not, traffickers position themselves in someone’s life, like someone that loves them, someone that they can trust. This could be a boyfriend or an older boyfriend. It could also be a friend. It could be another community member. There’s really no one kind of thing to look out for. But what we’re looking for is a combination of these red flags that point to incredibly toxic and unhealthy relationships. Because while not every abusive or toxic relationship turns into trafficking, overwhelmingly, especially with sex trafficking, it always starts with those psychologically and emotionally abusive relationships. Yeah. No, I think that I’m definitely guilty of thinking of trafficking as being related to crossing the border. And actually when I’m in the airports, more in the States than in Canada, I see the signs to look for, I guess, victims and look out for them. So can you give us some examples of how people are trafficked within the country? What does it look like? So trafficking is happening in every community across Canada. So I think while we know that a lot of the kind of commercial sex industry takes place in major urban areas, we also see recruitment and whirring and grooming happening in small towns and also big cities. And so again, when people are looking out for signs, this isn’t something that you would normally pick up on just passing someone on the street often. Again, there’s these really sophisticated forms of psychological and emotional control that includes things like love bombing, gaslighting, really kind of making the individual think they’re doing something wrong, that it needs to be hidden. The stigma around commercial sex work is really used as a tool to isolate and control people, to, again, keep them in the commercial sex market. But again, the difference between this and independent sex work is that again, it’s being controlled by a third party and they’re profiting entirely. When you’re looking at those later stages of exploitation and control, often individuals that are being exploited have no control over anything over their life. They’re being surveyed and watched. The trafficker controls when they eat, what they eat, when they sleep, who they see, and also the number and the types of commercial sex acts that they’re doing on a daily basis. It’s really scary to hear all of these things and that it’s happening so close to home. And I’m wondering how do you recognize some of these signs? What are we looking for recognizing signs of trafficking in our communities or just in general? I think increasingly we need to be looking to our immediate communities, too. We need to be looking at if you’ve got kids or I’ve got nieces and a nephew, all of those people in your lives that could be experiencing either sex trafficking or really gross forms of manipulation. So again, you’re looking for people that are withdrawing. They might have someone new in their life and they’re almost obsessed with pleasing them. Again, you’re going to see that they’re going to be showing signs of control. So not necessarily being honest about where they’re going, providing hand answers or responses to what they’re doing and who they’re seeing. They might be not going to school or to work, especially with sex trafficking, too. You’re going to see that they’re going to be having very different hours. It usually takes place at night, so up or away all night, sleeping all day at the early signs, especially in the luring and grooming traffickers will often love bomb folks. So again, they will shower them with everything they ever wanted. And sometimes this is like expensive clothes and shoes. Sometimes it’s also just a safe place to sleep, food, and also those promises of unconditional laughs. So I know it’s really nebulous, but generally speaking, if it feels too good to be true, it probably is. And if your gut is also telling you that something isn’t right, chances are you’re right. So really, it’s about following that intuition, keeping open lines of communication with those folks in your life, but also making sure that you’re also providing them with the nonjudgmental space. I think, again, the stigma of being engaged in commercial sex work is really intense, and it’s often used as a tool to control people. And so part of what we’re doing with our campaign right now is we’re going up against the traffickers, and we want everyone to know that they are important, they are special, and that there are services and resources in their community if they think something is going on that isn’t right, or if they feel like they’re in a sex trafficking situation or an abusive situation where they’re looking to exit.
These things that you’re talking about really speak to all the intersections around healthy relationships and not just intimate relationships, but parental child relationships. Like, for example, you talk about giving canned answers or being avoidant or withdrawing. While so many of us have been in relationships where we felt we needed to do that, like we felt we needed to lie to our parents, we felt we needed to lie to our friends. So there’s that one piece. And then the stigma around sex work creates an environment where human trafficking can exist. Right. So if I can’t talk about the fact that I’m working in a strip club, if I have to hide the fact that and again, I’m not completing those two things. But if I can’t even talk about the things that I’m doing, then I definitely can’t talk to you about how I’m feeling with someone new in my life. Right. And if I feel I have to lie, if I feel I need to conceal, if I feel I’m going to be judged by friends or family, it gives me all the more reason to lie and makes it more difficult to discern whether someone is hiding something because they are fearful of your judgment or they’re hiding something because they’re in a really dangerous situation. And so that really makes me think about what should we do if we suspect that someone we know is at risk? Listen, I hear from parents all the time when they’re a teen or College child, not child, but College student who is their child, who is also an adult, is acting in a way with which they’re not comfortable or doesn’t align with the parental expectations of how they should act. There often is a responsive lecture of judgment of don’t do this about how could you do this? Have you thought about the consequences? And what there isn’t is an open line of communication. So what do we do if we suspect someone we know is at risk? So I think for a lot of people, talking to their kids about sex isn’t easy, right? I think we’ve got a long way to go to people to kind of break down a lot of that stigma. And it’s around building healthy sexual and healthy romantic relationships generally. But I’d say if you’re also in that situation and you’re worried, you’ve no idea what to do, call the Canadian Human Trafficking hotline at 1833 900 1010. Every situation is unique, but we have trained trauma formed hotline response advocates that can really work with the callers on a case by CASEce basis to kind of increase that level of understanding, but also talk about strategies, about how to keep that door open, about how to maintain those open lines of communication. I’ll also say that similar to other forms of intimate partner violence, the most dangerous time for someone experiencing human trafficking is upon exit. That’s when they’re at the highest risk of physical retaliation and physical violence. So safety planning is so incredibly important. A lot of people, when they start kind of scratching the surface of what human trafficking really looks like, will come to me and say, well, why doesn’t she just leave? Why doesn’t she just go? Well, the multiple layers, again, of emotional and psychological abuse, the codependency that’s created on their trafficker, but also the real physical threats, make it really complicated. And like intimate park violence, it can take 5710 times to try to exit before it’s successful. So it really is an iterative process. There’s no one right answer. But again, there are resources available both through the hotline. But also we partner with over 900 frontline service delivery partners across the country. There are communitybased supports as well to help friends, family members, and individuals that might be experiencing sex trafficking. It makes me think about a long time ago. I knew a teenager who was being trafficked, and she was trafficked by another teenager her own age. And so it seemed almost like a pyramid scheme to me where one teenager was trafficked by another teenager who was trafficked by another teenager. And I don’t know how many levels it went up to this older guy, but I remember when she told me what she was doing and she was being coerced into sex work and the money was being taken from her. And what struck me so hard was the volume of coerced. I shouldn’t call it sex work, sorry, coerced sexual exchange or coerced trafficking that she was subjected to on a daily basis. And she talked about it as though it was normal. And I remember thinking about this is a long, long time ago. This is over 15 years ago now, I think, or maybe not 1512 years ago. I remember thinking about, like, how do I keep engaging with this person? Because if I tell her to leave right now, if I call the cops. I worked in conjunction with a social worker on this case, but I was not in this field at the time. I was doing something different. She had just come to me. And I remember thinking, I don’t want to scare her off. I want to make sure she knows that I’m here. I want to make sure that she knows that there’s really no judgment around what’s happening. And I’m here. And I remember kind of just sticking around for a while and just being there and feeling a little bit lost. L
ike, I wish there had been a hotline. And I know that of course, we’re doing some promotion of the hotline, but it’s not a plug, folks. It really is just something that I think is a useful tool. So if somebody is experiencing human trafficking, absolutely you can call. But also if you’re concerned about supporting somebody, that can be really useful. And I wish we had more of these tools in other realms as well for people supporting people with substance abuse issues. If there was just like a hotline, they could call in the moment because we don’t really need to wait two weeks to get an appointment with a therapist. We don’t really need to wait until we can get in on the list with a social service agency. Many of us feel like we need help now if we’re going to support the people around us. So I’m curious, and it has to be different. If you see something suspicious related to a stranger, like maybe you’re out and about traveling. As I said, I see these signs in the airport. They’re always in the airport bathrooms. I can’t step in, like, I can’t walk up step in. What would the next step look like? I think calling the hotline would be great, especially if you don’t know the person. Because let’s be honest, we also know that there’s like a hypercriminalization of commercial sex work as well. You don’t know what that person is experiencing. So usually kind of jumping in trying to save them. Bringing cops involved is probably going to create more harm than good because it is such a complicated set of factors when someone’s figuring this out and also thinking about exiting. So again, the hotline is a great resource, because if you see something that is tangible, you can submit information in a tip, and we can forward that onto the appropriate law enforcement. There’s enough information to really say, like, yes, this is trafficking and not just commercial sexual activity. We still get a lot inflation on that across the country. But I also think sharing information that way. And again, if people ask for help, I think it’s great to provide it for them. But again, thinking through the complexity of what those individuals are going for, there’s usually not one kind of right way to intervene. Having said that, though, if you ever see anyone who is in immediate physical danger and this goes for anything. Right, you see someone being robbed, you see someone having a heart attack, you called 911. And so similar, if you see any forms of, like, violence or if someone’s in danger, you should always call the cops. But usually the signs are so much more subtle than that. So, again, we’re really looking to strengthen those bonds and the understanding within communities. And I really think that that’s one of our best tools against this because again, traffickers use the lack of information on the issue to continue to exploit people. Right. I think a lot of the imagery, too, of women in handcuffs and in the shadows. It also doesn’t help because when people are experiencing sexual exploitation and trafficking see that, they’re like, oh, well, that’s not me. I’m not, quote, unquote, that bad. And so it just, again, is sending everyone in the complete wrong direction, looking for the wrong things when really prevention and exiting can take time planning, but they also require, like you talked about, a robust system of supports around them. So we often see the need for housing and shelter, mental health, general, what we call case management, which is someone just helping folks navigate the system and access all of those different services. And then there’s usually often also a need for basic needs similar to other forms of intimate partner violence. Often when people are exiting a trafficking situation, they’re leaving with little more than the clothes on their backs. And so they really kind of have to start completely over. And so we need a really kind of robust wraparound support system to make sure that they’re emotionally and physically safe. Right. And when we think about the housing crisis across the country and how expensive it is for people to live, how people don’t have basic income, these things are all intersecting. Right. And again, it goes back to that question, like, why don’t you just leave? And of course, it’s not necessarily necessarily that simple. And listening to everything you’re saying, how common is this? How common is it within our communities within Canada? I’m curious. The data that we have is only the tip of the iceberg. And I think part of it, too, is because no one recognizes what human trafficking is and there are still so many barriers to exiting and accessing support. We estimate that there are thousands of people that are being trafficked in Canada every year, and those are also largely Canadian women and girls. We also see men and trans folks being represented. But this really is a gender based issue in Canada. In our first year of operating the hotline, we identified 415 cases, which is kind of similar to what law enforcement pick up nationally every year. But again, we think that this is just a small fraction of how it’s being experienced. And one of the things that always resonates with me and it’s similar to your story, but the more you talk about it, the more light bulbs go off. And people say, oh, my God, I’ve been around this. And I think that’s why we also need to be so thoughtful and careful in our public awareness, because that realization can be really traumatic and really hard. And so, again, it’s important that folks know that there are supports available and also through the hotline at 1833 901,010.
Yeah. I was thinking back to if you see something that seems suspicious, if you see something where you think somebody’s being coerced. And I was thinking about just general abuse and safety in public. And one thing is simply to talk to someone, like even just saying, hey, how’s it going? Or making small talk that can help. First of all, let the person know that you’re there, but also maybe give you a different gauge on the situation. I always find that just like a conversation, making eye contact. And I know that, for example, in Toronto, that is not something people do like in other parts of the country. They do definitely in other parts of the world. And so I find that the distance at which we keep ourselves in a city like Toronto makes it difficult as well, because literally saying Hi to people can make them uncomfortable. And so you don’t know why they’re uncomfortable. Are they in a tough situation? But even if you’re on the bus and you see somebody being harassed, like, just sitting next to them, talking to them, because you can’t necessarily like, I can’t necessarily stand up to a harasser. Right. Like, I might get hurt, too, but just kind of there’s power in numbers. And it makes me think about something that we have talked about is really differentiating between offering support and trying to be a savior. Right. And I think that’s a really important part of the work that you are doing with the Canadian human trafficking hotline, offering support that is nonjudgmental. I’m curious, what does that look like on the hotline to ensure that you’re supporting people at supporting them to, I guess, achieve the outcomes that they seek as opposed to what we think they ought to seek. So there’s no scripts with the hotline. All of our staff receive over 60 hours of training before they take their first call, including lots of mentorship and shadowing. But again, the very first thing people can expect when they call the hotline is a quick safety check. So the first thing we ask is, are you in a safe place to talk? And then from there, if they are, we go on to just say, hey, why are you calling? And we just listen. And then from there, we hear whatever part of their story they want to share or they talk about whatever service they need. Again, through our referral directory, we’ve got direct relationships with those partners. And as someone who’s worked with folks in the social services area, similar to what you were saying, like, there can be so many rules around who is eligible for what services. Right. And so when someone reaches out and if they essentially get the door slammed in their face, it can take them so long to actually reach out for services again. So we do our very best to really understand the ins and outs of all of these programs and to explain to folks what potential rules and requirements are, what the eligibility is, and then provide those warm transfers through the phone if they want them so that we can connect them directly with those services. So we’re not just giving them a number and wishing them a good day because unfortunately, that’s just not the way our social services system works. The other thing, too, is that we don’t probe for any information unless it’s required for a service. So, for example, when we’re kind of going through the needs assessment, talking about what types of services they want to access, we’ll talk about if there’s like, women specific services, male specific services. But unless it’s required as part of the referral, we don’t solicit any information. We just listen. We’re there to hear whatever anyone has to kind of offer or if they want to talk anything through. And then from there, we work on connecting them with whatever services we can based on their needs. I think the other important thing, too, and I think we see a lot of this across Canada is people assume, oh, man, this is a crime. It’s really bad. You just got to call law enforcement, get them in and arrest the bad guys. And it’s just not how it works. So we don’t have any intended outcomes for any of our calls. We don’t try and push so that we get so many tips to law enforcement or so many referrals to a specific service. It’s really based on the individual needs and the preferences of that person. And I think part of that is so important, too, because when folks are being psychologically and emotionally controlled this way, we need to counteract that with empowerment. We need to counteract that with choice and informed choice and giving them that power and authority to make decisions on their own behalf. So I think that is so incredibly important, too, that we’re not, again, telling people what to do or trying to push them into a place that they may not be ready for yet. Yeah, I think about calling law enforcement or calling 911. And there are many people who are avoidant of that who maybe don’t trust the authorities, who have other layers of risk in their community, like if they’re living in a home where somebody is undocumented or if they’re living in a home where somebody could get in trouble or where there’s a history of abuse by authorities, we have to have these other options. And that’s a big part of why I think it’s good that the hotline is there as an option without the pressure to report to authorities. I think just being disconnected, not paying attention to it, and being guilty of that, hearing all of these things, I think you’re right. It’s like the first thing you want to do is, well, you just got to leave. You got to call the cops. If I see something bad and then not recognizing how difficult all of these things are. So the service just seems like such a valuable support system for people in the situation. And now I know I’m going to be paying more attention when I’m out, when I’m talking to people, I’m just paying attention. I think it’s probably for me, at least the first thing I can start doing is there an age where people are more likely to be forced into these situations to be trafficked. I think about all my experiences. I shared one, but I’ve seen others, and I’ve been kind of involved without knowing the language around it.
Again, this was a long time ago, and it definitely wasn’t something that we call trafficking, although it sounds like it would qualify, but they were all young people. Is that more common for young people to be victims? Obviously, it’s people who are vulnerable that they take advantage of. And so young people are less likely to have financial resources. I imagine people who are dealing with homelessness are going to be stronger targets. The fact that we are living in a system that leaves fewer options for women and girls and trans folks and nonbinary folks speaks to the fact that those groups are highly overrepresented. Is there any other kind of risk factor or demographic piece that it might be helpful to be aware of? Yeah. And traffickers look for any form of vulnerability. So while those groups are definitely over represented, it can also be anyone. Right. And it’s also tapping into some of those deep emotional vulnerabilities. And I remember talking to friends about this a few years ago, and they were like, oh, great. So every teenage girl with self esteem issues could potentially be traffic? Yes, that’s exactly what they kind of go for. We do see young folks being really over represented, and I think part of that, too, is also because to be very blunt about it, like there’s a higher price premium for younger people in the commercial sex industry, so there’s more profits for traffickers. I will also say in our operating of the hotline, we do have a legal duty to report. So if there is a minor that is at risk of being harmed or if there’s a minor being involved in the commercial sex industry, we actually all have a legal duty report on that. And we also make that clear in terms of our consent and confidentiality when people call. So I also think that a lot of youth intentionally don’t disclose the fact that they’re minors because they don’t want CAAS involved yet. Right. So again, our numbers, we don’t have really strong numbers, but anecdotally and in talking to folks that have been in the space for decades and survivors as well, while we see that the majority of those are kind of between 18 and 24, most survivors and people in the space will say that overwhelmingly, it always starts when they’re minors, and then it gets picked up on later on into their late teens and early 20s. And again, that is because young folks, there’s so much going on in their lives. There are so many vulnerabilities just being a minor and living in this world. And if you add things onto that, like issues at home, low self esteem, poverty, homelessness, then again, it just makes it that much easier for traffickers to really embed themselves in that person’s life and then quickly turn things around to exploit them for their own gain. Yeah. It’s I guess something that we’re going to be more aware of moving forward. So I’ve learned a lot from this conversation. Really appreciate you, your time, the work that you’re doing with the hotline, as well as with the center. So thank you so much for being here once again, folks, Julia Drydeck, the executive director of the Canadian Center to End Human Trafficking, thank you for your insights and expertise. Thank you. That was such an interesting conversation for me, reflecting back at the beginning of the conversation when there was this idea of love bombing and somebody showering you with gifts and everything being too good to be true, but also knowing deep down that there’s something wrong, allowing people an opportunity to just have a discussion with you and creating that environment where they’re comfortable, I think, is such a valuable first step. Yeah. I guess it’s a reminder that it’s not as simple as one conversation. It really is about cultivating a connection with people. We spend a lot of time on intimate relationships here, but it’s all types of relationships so that people feel they can come to you. Like, I think about my first experience with this that I shared with a young woman, and I’m glad that she was able to come speak to me because we had an outcome that was okay. I’m not going to get into the details of it, but it is about cultivating that space where people feel they can come and tell you. I don’t want to say anything because we don’t want everyone to tell us anything but tell you when they’re in need or speak to you about what they’re feeling or even feeling confused. Because one thing that struck me while Julia was speaking was this reminder that people don’t even know that it’s happening to them. Right. Like when you’re overwhelmed, when you’re being controlled, when you’re being manipulated. We didn’t talk about drugs and alcohol, but it’s easy to get into a space Where situations that are really harmful can feel normal. At the time. And I was thinking two years ago at this time, I released a podcast episode on how to help someone in an abusive relationship. And at that time, February 2020, a friend and colleague of mine, Dr. Amy Harwick, she was killed by a former partner, a partner from way in her past. And it obviously hit really close to home for me, for some of my other friends who were actually really close with her. And I think this topic goes hand in hand with that one Because we all can be better at being sources of support for folks who need it. And it’s not about saving anyone, but about knowing how to be supportive According to their needs. And Amy had done everything right and the system failed her. But again, these issues just go hand in hand Because both trafficking and intimate partner violence Are far more likely to affect women, girls, and trans and non binary folks who are also over represented. So I’m going to also just recommend that folks go back and have a listen to that episode. I think it was called how to help someone in an abusive relationship from right about this time, I think it was February 21, 2020. Go back and have a listen Because I think there’s a lot of overlap between what we know. There’s overlap between abuse and trafficking, and trafficking is hand in hand with abuse, and we need to keep talking about it. And obviously, we celebrate relationships and love and pleasure of all forms here, but we also have to talk about the other side, the less shiny parts. And also I shouldn’t even call it the other side Because it’s a continuum along with relationships exist and it can be very blurry and confusing.
So I’m glad we’re talking about it. And once again, a reminder, folks, if you or someone you know could use support, do call the Canadian human trafficking hotline at 1833 910. They’ve got traumainformed, nonjudgmental support. They’re 24/7. You can talk to them on the phone or you can actually online chat through the Canadian human trafficking hotline website, which is Canadian human trafficking hotline. You can head there. Ca and you can chat with them Because I think a lot of us don’t like talking on the phone, but also people may not have the opportunity to have private conversations but may be able to chat. So I’ll leave you with that canadianhuman TraffickingHotline CA. Thanks, Babe, and thanks, folks, for hanging with us. Hoping you’re taking good care of yourself and the people around you today. And every day you’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcasts. Improve your sex life. Improve your life.
