November 13, 2020
Sex Clubs, Open Relationships & Setting Boundaries with Taylor Nolan
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We talk labia, penis size, public relationships, consensual non-monogamy and more with Taylor Nolan. Taylor is a psychotherapist who appeared on ABC’s The Bachelor and Bachelor in Paradise. She hosts her own podcast and is recognized on social media for being outspoken and vulnerable on issues around intersectional feminism, animal rescue, and mental and sexual health.
Follow Taylor on Instagram & Twitter. Check out Taylor’s podcast, Let’s Talk About It!
Here are a few notes on our discussion of labia…
Why are we so obsessed with the way our labia looks?
Because we have very few opportunities to see real naked bodies, we tend to draw our expectations from porn. But porn, as we know, is not generally representative of the general population. The bodies depicted tend to reflect one specific standard and oftentimes don’t align with what we see in ourselves. When it comes to how we view our labia, we may want to thicken, shorten, lengthen, or lighten ours to match what we see in porn. These unrealistic expectations are only intensified by the fact that we don’t tend to talk about our labia with our friends and this silence around our genitals can reinforce feelings of shame.
How can I get over thinking my lips are ugly?
If you don’t love your labia, that’s okay. You don’t have to love everything about your body at every moment in time. It might be useful to consider where these negative messages and feelings come from:
Were you told that it was “dirty” when you were young? If so, do you know otherwise now? The vagina, for example, is like a self cleaning oven.
Were you shamed for touching yourself as a child or teenager? Can you reframe these messages to enjoy your body and derive pleasure from masturbation? Can you consider the health benefits of masturbation? These include stress reduction, lower anxiety, improved mood, a better night’s sleep and heightened sexual functioning.
The more pleasure you learn to derive from your body and the more you allow your body to perform for you in functional ways (e.g. dance, sport, self expression), the more likely you’ll be to develop a neutral or positive attitude toward it.
An ex said they were long and I can’t get it out of my head. I’m always wondering what my BF is thinking…
If your partner is shaming you for your labia or any part of your body, they might want to consider how they feel about their own body – and how they might work on their self-esteem in general. Oftentimes when we’re critical of others, it’s because we’re avoiding confronting our own self-criticism.
Is labiaplasty a valid option?
Note on labiaplasty: This is a personal choice. I do know one woman who found that her labia got in the way of comfortable intercourse (especially post menopause) and she found many clothes uncomfortable. She therefore opted to have a labiaplasty to reduce the length of her lips and is happy with the results. I also know others who feel pressured to alter their labia by unrealistic portrayals of beauty.
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This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Sex Clubs, Open Relationships & Setting Boundaries with Taylor Nolan
00:00:05 – 00:05:01
You’re listening to the sacs with dr jess podcast sacks and relationship advice you can use tonight Welcome to the sex with dr. Just podcast i’m your co host brandon. Wear here with my lovely other. Half doctor jess. It sounds like you’ve got your bedroom voice going really. Maybe because it’s earlier in the morning for you today. yeah. I’m still waking up today. Going to be talking to taylor nolan. So taylor’s best known for her appearance on season. Twenty one of abc’s the bachelor and season four of bachelor in paradise out where she started talking about emotional intelligence as she goes by the emotionally intelligent bachelorette Since appearing on the bachelor she’s founded her own psychotherapy practice and has been the host of. Let’s talk about it. a podcast. For the last three years and she has just recently started her. Hd in clinical sexology. So i’m excited to chat with taylor. But before we get to taylor. I want to answer some questions and talk about libya libya libya. Because we’ve received so many questions about how the labia are supposed to look even what you’re supposed to do with them. So i wanted to get to a few of those and i wanna say you to sponsor. Let’s get checked dot com. They offer home sti as well as a range of other health tests. They mail you the kit. You provide a sample mail back and you get your secure results online. In a matter of days check them out at. Let’s get checked dot com and please use code. Dr jess d. r. j. e. s. s. to save a few dollars and also so that they know that you heard about it here. Let’s get checked dot com with code. Dr jess alright. Labia labia labia labia. I have all these questions. So why are we so obsessed with the way our lady a look. How can i get over thinking that. My lips are ugly. An accent something. Not so nice about my lips. How do i get over it. And then some general questions about lia plastic. So i think we can start with. Why are we so obsessed with the way our labia. Look i i gotta ask you. Are you obsessed with the way your penis looks. Are you concerned about the way. Your penis looks no. I don’t generally think about it. You’re not concerned that it only has one. I know the one. I i’ve accepted that. Thank you. But i don’t think about the way that my penis looks is not something that crosses my mind. I’m also not in the dating realm. So maybe that’s why i don’t. I’m not worried. I mean not that i don’t care what you think. But at the same time he just doesn’t cross my mind but with with libya. I think we see fewer of them. Perhaps we have so few opportunities to see real naked bodies so we tend to draw our expectations from porn. Because porn is the only place we get to see naked bodies and see genitalia up close but porn as we know is not generally representative of the general population. The the bodies depicted tend to reflect a very specific look or standard and oftentimes don’t necessarily reflect what we see in ourselves so when it comes to see how you are labia. I think sometimes we want to thicken or shorten thin or rs to match what we see in porn in these unrealistic expectations are not only intensified by the fact that we don’t even talk about our labia right. We don’t know what our friends will look like. But i think it really reinforces these feelings of shame. I think that people with a penis would comment that you know. They are concerned about the way that their penis looks. But i don’t think there’s the same emphasis on Modifying your penis with the exception of course of having like people want a bigger penis okay. That’s just the you want to figure penis. I’m content with my penis side. Asked you that a little while ago. Would you have said the same way was younger. I wanted to be a human tripod because your other two legs got tired. I needed some help walking. No but now. I think. I’m comfortable with what i have. I also don’t think there’s the same pressure on men to be concerned necessarily with the way that their penis looks aesthetically. But i think size wise. There is a lot of pressure because that’s probably one of the most common emails i get. How do i make my penis bigger. And unfortunately there’s there’s not a lot i can do. But i i gotta ask you when you’re young or i can make you famous bigger. But it’s temporary. And i may not be in the mood for you. I think about okay. So what would be the advantage when you look back. You know ten twenty years ago when you wanted a bigger penis. What would have been the advantage of having a bigger peanuts. How would of it sparked join in her life.
00:05:02 – 00:10:03
Or enriched your sex life. yeah. I think it would be more just first of all just showing people if you look at me. No i don’t mean. I actually wanted just really show people what i meant was i think there is this connection between How good you are in the size of your penis. I think that there is a competition amongst other. I mean in my group a with other guys just like even though it was something you weren’t like. Hey how big is yours. Have you measured lately. yes. I measured it. From the bottom of my rectum But status thing what you’re saying. Yes that makes sense. And so while penises are focused on size laser focused also on size but on color. And you know this person asked. How do i get over thinking that my lips are ugly. And i know that there’s this pressure to love your body but i think it’s also kid to know that you don’t have to love everything about your body at every moment in time but i do think it can be useful to consider where these negative messages and feelings come from so. Were you told that you know what was between. Your legs was dirty when you were young If so do you know otherwise now so for the giant for example. It’s a self cleaning oven. It’s like the cleanest thing. I’ve got You know we were. You shamed for touching yourself as a child or a teenager and if you were. Can you reframe these messages to enjoy your body and drive pleasure from from touch masturbation from any type of sex and can you think about the health benefits of of pleasure because the size of your labia is unlikely now. There can be exceptions but is unlikely to determine the pleasure for you and definitely not determining the pleasure for your partner. And i think we have to think about you. Know all the benefits of of taking pleasure from our bodies instead of criticizing them. You know stress reduction and lower anxiety and improve mood. A better night’s sleep better sexual functioning. And i do find that here this from clients all the time the more you learn to derive pleasure from your body and the more you allow your body to perform for you in functional ways that feel good whether it’s sex or dance or sport or any form of self expression the more likely you are to develop either positive or neutral attitude toward your body but i will ask you this and i think i’ve asked you this before. Have you ever thought about the appearance of a partners. Labia so funny that you mentioned that. Because that’s exactly where. I was headed with this. No i haven’t and number two. I also when i think about you. And i think about our sex life and i think when we first got started even if there was something that you might have felt uncomfortable with. It’s not something that would have resonated with me. It’s not like i would have been like. Oh my goodness hurley are too big or too small or too thin too fat or any of those things. It’s not and more importantly why would partner be making you feel bad both well. That’s great because somebody else sent me this question saying that an act said that they were too long so the labia were too long and i can’t get it out of my head. I’m always wondering what my new boyfriend is thinking. And go back to your acts or any partner if your partner is shaming you for your leo or any part of your body. I think they might want to consider how they feel about their own body and how they might work on their own bodily self esteem in general because oftentimes when we’re critical of others it’s because we’re confronting our own self criticism and then also it comes down to you know i’ve only seen one type labia because i’ve only watched porn and they tend to kind of be. I mean not that. I’ve watched porn. But i think they tend to be like shorter or smaller and so sometimes something new is just something. We’re discovering and i think with a new partner i mean. Don’t you feel that you’re just excited to discover their body. Absolutely i mean that question that you just asked your eloquent answer is so detailed and thoughtful. Mine is number one. They’re probably not even realizing your anything with your labia and number two. They’re probably just super excited to be with you and the excitement of being with somebody new that they’re excited they just want lifts on lipson lips just want to put. Yeah -solutely you know. I also received questions about labia plastic actually more from reporters than from actual listeners. Or people who read the blog and so it. It’s interesting because of course you know our line. Is you know your lady are fine. You don’t need to have labia pasta. You don’t wanna be pressured. By unrealistic portrayals of beauty there are certainly risks with libya plus t Which often involves making the lips smaller just to clarify. You know there are damages. That can be done. You know. I had another person who had a labia party. And they also cut away at the the hood of the clitoris.
00:10:03 – 00:15:02
And i think. I’ve spoken about this before. But the plastic surgeon called me and said i didn’t touch the clitoris. Can you explain to this person that it could not have affected their sexual functioning so they were calling me saying. Oh my patient says they’re not having orgasms anymore or they’re not as sensitive but i didn’t touch their clitoris and i’m thinking well you did touch their clitoris. You touch their hood of the clitoris. Which is the foreskin of the taurus that slides over the head and the internal shaft. And so you know. Certainly we want people to feel decent in their bodies and not feel pressure. But i also wanna say that anything you do to. Your body is a personal choice. Because i do know a woman who found that her labia got in the way of a lot of things show. She felt that it got in the way of her clothing. And it actually got in the way of intercourse post menopause particularly. She felt really uncomfortable physically. Where the lips would sort of push inside and so she just. It didn’t work for her and show. She opted to have libya plastic to reduce the length of her lips and she was happy with the results. So i don’t want people to take that and say oh. I need to make my lips smaller and i do want you to feel great in your body. And please. don’t worry about the aesthetic about or at least feel neutral right. Anything we moved from the body positivity movement to the body neutrality movement. I mean. I still think it’s great. You know. feel some great things about your body whether it’s the way it moves or how it works for. You’re how you feel when you have an orgasm. So i don’t want you to take this story to suggest that. Oh yeah i should have a labia plastic. In her case it was getting in the way of her sex life not from an aesthetic perspective but she was actually having trouble with intercourse founded uncomfortable. And this help for her. So that’s an outlier story. But i also don’t want to dismiss it and just say libya plastic bad. You know. I think you you’re the expert in your own experience. I hope you have the tools and the support to undo all of the negative messaging around around the way our bodies look. And i mean i’ve told you my philosophy before which is that. My body is what carries me through life. And it’s just this vessel that carries the human being that is just and i don’t have any time to to dislike it. I wanna treat it as well as i can but definitely not obsess over it and give it as much comfort and pleasure as i can with the exception of my five inch heels which probably are not good for it. I mean easier said than done. But i do like your approach which is just trying to remain even if nothing else neutral about your body because when you do reflect on it like you just said it. It’s you got one can make it a little bit better. You can feel neutral or about it but you get one. Make the best of it. And i’m not gonna lie. I do love my body. I love all the things it does for me. I like the way it looks like the way it feels. I can name body parts. That i like and i challenge everybody to do that. Like are you able to say. I love my thighs. I love my skin. I love my stomach. Love my breasts. I love my armpits. Whatever it is you love. ’cause i put that out on my instagram once and people really responsive to this mean it was a person looking in the mirror and it says which bit should i alter must be british. Which bit should i alter and the answer was you know the culture as opposed to bid on my body and i asked people to say to to post in the comments. What part of your body do you like. And some people did. but a lot of people Bothered to comment or i shouldn’t say bothered. A lot of people took the time to comment but had difficulty saying something they like. And that’s the other thing. We’re not supposed to say what we liked about ourselves. I’m cocky people when i do. But that’s okay. Because i got this one life anyhow We have so much to talk about including sex clubs. And i get some of your questions as well taylor. So let’s go ahead and bring taylor on welcome sailor. Nice to talk to you again. It’s been a little while. Yes that has been. But i’m so excited to be here and to chat with you again so many things to catch up on we. Do you know last time. We spoke on your podcast. We were talking about sex clubs because you had recently visited and you had the chance to check out a waste. Auckland which is really just the corner from my house Yes it was quite an experience. I was so nervous about going and texting you a bunch before. I was super appreciated. All of your input. You know to wear shoes. Like what do i yeah. It was a great experience and loved coming to toronto. Super sowed that it’s ben. I haven’t been there literally since new year’s so was there for like two days of twenty twenty. Oh my goodness and probably how many days i was here and then all of a sudden. It’s been seven months so always. This was your first sex club. How did it strike you kind of what what stood out. What surprised you. Was it exactly what you were hoping for. I was so we went on like Gosh it might have been like sunday night.
00:15:02 – 00:20:03
I think it was. So i was like i know. This isn’t like prime time for folks to be out. Sex club must have been really know what prime time is like friday saturday night. I was surprised that it’s like a house almost like i wasn’t expecting that i don’t know why i thought it’d be like a club. Kind of a vibe I did like that. It was broken up into different rooms and areas and that there was like a couples level and appreciated that. I think like it made sense that the couches and whatnot were I don’t know what the material was was almost like leather. Yeah yeah i like. It didn’t almost felts. I don’t know somewhat sterile. You know because they need to be able to easily just wipe things down by. It did just i was kind of like i don’t know do i sit on this like i was grabbing towels and putting them make sure i was fully covered when i did lay down. I squirted everywhere when i was there. There wasn’t anyone that like we wanted to include in our sexual experience unfortunately By we still had a really fun. Time and people were very intentional about consent which is super appreciated. Like woman came up and was like. Do you mind if i watch and i was like. Yeah sure so it was. It was overall really fun. You know nerves and a little bit of awkwardness at first. If like do. I walk around my brana. Where do i walk around naked. What am i gonna feel comfortable with by was super happy to have a partner there that you know i can talk through all of those things with and that felt like i had support being there so i would definitely go back again. They have like naked karaoke night. I was like that is so fun. Like i didn’t think i would enjoy so much just being like naked in front of other people but it was almost like. You’re kind of a part of something. And they were naked to and took away a lot of I don’t know the weirdness of your body like it allowed me to just feel a little bit more comfortable in my body so it was a very different experience because like where else are you naked around a bunch of people like yeah absolutely jim walker room and even that is like barry awkward. ’cause it’s like is my body going be sexualize isn’t ni- and outraced this. You know in some ways yes was sexualize but also just kind of like we’re all in this space. i remember. I felt like that when we went to desire for the first time and this was quite a while ago now and i remember thinking. Gosh how am i gonna feel the first time you dome around all these other people that are naked and how you feel about myself going to feel about others going to be aroused. Am i not. Am i supposed to be like what what is happening. There’s just so many questions going through your mind and then you get there and everybody else’s while those that were comfortable being naked were naked and it was just not a thing. It was like okay. Whatever you know it’s like you do what works for you. And that’s that’s always the first question i get from people. They want to know what to wear. You were more particular about the footwear. Here’s me i’m like you need to wear shoes. Please wear shoes for your own hygiene. Where shoes you know. All i care about is is the hygiene but yet everybody to know what to wear and really you wanna wear what you feel comfortable in what you feel sexy in probably something that makes it easy to undress if you want to undress in public so some people will undressing rooms and put their clothes in the lockers but some of us like to kind of peel. The layers away so i. I don’t know a full on tear away. Leisure suits some nineties. Tearaway pants like a wrap dress. But i did take it off in the locker room and then i walked around in bra and underwear and then after i think we went into the pool and that was way was like okay. I’m gonna get fully naked and going the pool and like never really been in a pool fully naked either and then. After i got out of the pool i was like well. I’ve already been naked. So i don’t really need to put it back on but i can imagine like kind of what you were saying about. Not being sure when you go especially like as a person with a penis that like i would imagine that there would be different anxieties. Like am i supposed to be aroused. You know how. Am i gonna feel if i’m not a and i’m walking around here. Am i going to be judged in certain ways. Like i would imagine that there might potentially be some extra anxiety of almost like a performance anxiety as someone with penis going into that kind of environment. Yeah it was. It was layered if it was like post to be aroused right now.
00:20:03 – 00:25:09
Are you not supposed to be. And just then you start thinking too much about things and then you get in your own head and it’s not at all that situation. Actually what i hear from so many couples who are in like the swing lifestyle or who frequent clubs or these sex clothing optional resorts that also have an erotic to them. Is that a number of the folks with penises. Report that they really don’t struggle with erection or get in their head when they’re at home but in those more public environments they do because there are so many more is on them. they feel a sense of performance pressure. And it’s so funny. Because i’ve not funny but i’ve worked through that with so many different penises and for many of them. It actually isn’t a ton of work as soon as they hear the reassurance that hey your normal yeah that happens keep playing follow. Follow the pleasure. If it comes back it comes back. If it doesn’t don’t worry. And as i who did i have on the always chatting with dr lex and they were saying. Don’t worry it won’t be the last direction of your life like if you don’t get one now he’ll get one later. Yeah dr lex also made reference to for those of us with penises. You can use other parts of your body. Don’t worry it doesn’t you know if it’s if you’re not feeling the moment then use your hands. Use your tongue use your knees. Use your toes. Whatever it you can expand expand upon the repertoire of things you can. You does away from other. People are very into toes. I just happened to be less so so in terms of the sex club. Have you been to another sense or was that your first because of covid. That was my first. Gosh that was in december. I think that was in either november december and then i went back for new years in toronto and haven’t been back to toronto and i really don’t know i think that there are there’s more sex parties here in seattle that i’ve been told then there is like an actual sex club and there was supposed to go to new york at one point and there’s a bunch there and so i would love to go to one of those but yeah now that we’re in covid era i don’t i don’t i see that happening for very long time when i lasted seeing my partner in january in toronto that the only person that i had had sex web because right after that was when cova kind of came up a little bit in february then march and didn’t see anyone until he then came to visit me and june and i was like it’s been a while since something someone else has penetrated me. We’ll you talk you talk really openly because in part you live your life in the public eye. I’m sure you don’t show everybody everything but you talk about relationships and sex and recently a story was picked up you talked about the fact that the person you marry is not gonna be the only person you have sex with for the rest of your life so and of course that gets picked up you receive a lot of You have you have so many followers of course publicly specifically on instagram where all over you with projecting their own shoes onto you so give some context to that. How do you how do you identify. Or how do you describe your your own relationship style. Yeah it’s a great question. I think like when i first had sex my first boyfriend’s i thought i was like fifteen fourteen at the time and i thought i mean i even before that i had this weird rule of like i’m not gonna have sex anyone until i’m eighteen because that’s what i’m officially an adult and not spur dole but then you know rationalized all these things to unpack about quote virginity by you know. I was convinced that like he was going to be the person that i married. My first love was gonna be the person that i married. And he was the first person i’ve had sex with. And i think maybe my first relationship was a bit unconventional in the fact that he was the first person. I explored Partnered sex with and he was also the first person that i experienced threesomes with and i think given that my first relationship also included other partners sexually kind of like switched up those kind of Very patriarchal thought processes that i had prior of like you know i’m gonna save myself till i’m eighteen and i’m gonna marry that person and instead it was more of this like okay if i really look at this by really look at marriage quotas to post to be.
00:25:09 – 00:30:02
This is gonna be like the person you have sex with for the rest of your life like this one person and i just. It seems so unrealistic to me and it seemed like so much pressure and when my first partner and i did explore and have other people come into our sexual relationship it was so much fun and it was so playful and espace for curiosity and a space for exploration that i just thought well wouldn’t this be great to have a long term relationship In a marriage rate like that was the kind of playfulness and openness that. I would want to have in a marriage. And you know unpacking that as i kind of became a bit of a serial monogamy that it was a lot of pressure to do that but it also required you know in order to step out of that pressure to some kind of openness required a bit of emotional intelligence inquired a bit of openness and curiosity from that other partner and to me. It’s just made sense. You know i think having twice in a relationship is so important as well as feeling empowered and respected in the kind of relationship that you wanna have with someone that it’s a mutual negotiation of rules and boundaries and experiences and needs and desires that are agreed upon in that relationship. And i think the most important piece of that for me is knowing that that negotiation is ongoing that that is a continuous conversation that you’ll have throughout your relationship as check ins and for me going into any relationship i always say i know that the person that i marry not going to be the one and only person that i have sex with for the rest of my life and this is why and if you wanna be in a long term relationship with me i would love for us to have experiences like being able to go to a sex club being able to explore actually with n without each other and trying to figure out. Okay how what kinds of people can. I have that kind of relationship with you know. But all those conversations. I star even before any kind of commitment to the relationship has been started. And that’s interesting. You say that because people often ask will win. Do we start these conversations and i would say it’s never too soon. It never too soon now. it’s also never too late. I don’t wanna say never but it’s often not too late. But i was also philosophically so i have this nice relationship with brandon. We have you know just the best life. I feel really really lucky. In spite of these circumstances that are more limiting right now. And i ask myself and we were talking about this in the car. The other day was the best conversations on our car rides about. Why would i. Why would i wanna hold you back from pleasure if something feels good to you if something is appealing to you if something brings you you know excitement. And fulfilment what holds me back from indulging with you or supporting you. I don’t even like the word of permission. Like i don’t want to giving you permission but indulging and encouraging you to explore that curiosity now that doesn’t mean i’m okay with everything but just from a philosophical perspective or even an emotional emotionally intelligent or literate perspective. I think i actually need to answer that question. I so the question isn’t necessarily. Hey would you be comfortable with this. But i think the question is okay. So if you’re comfortable what makes you comfortable and if you’re uncomfortable what makes you uncomfortable because it would be fair to say okay. I’m afraid that that could lead to another emotional attachment that might undermine ours or take away time from ours. Those could be very realistic conversations to have. and so. that’s why when you say that this is an ongoing conversation. It’s not one. Sit down and sign. A contract agreed with for life it really really resonates with me and i think that you know we’ve been together forever and alex me in this you know. He’s nice forever. I’m just kidding. So i think about how long we’ve been together. And how things have evolved and how. It’s very difficult to put a link put language or a box or a specific label on it. But what i like about this relationship is that we’re just were open to conversation to discussion and You know that doesn’t mean everything’s ago.
00:30:02 – 00:35:07
And i think that you know when people run with headlines you when you say the person i. Mary isn’t going to be the only person with whom i have. Sex for the rest of my life people focus on one specific thing that you’re having sex with a bunch of people and that’s right. Meanwhile you’re just waiting for zach to get over the border the limited number of times. You know you recently came out as a couple publicly. How was that a relief. Was that a burden. How did people respond. How are you feeling about that. Yeah i think you know it really interesting process. It’s different because this isn’t my first relationship coming out of the public eye anymore. Does now the second relationship and so it was also different. Me because zack does have an instagram. My previous partner did not have instagram. And there’s all these fears and insecurities that have came up. And i think it also was interesting because i want about sharing my relationship with zach very different than how i’ve ever shared a relationship in the past and i was really honest about oliver gray area. I mean our relationship started out as justification and i was just like we both want to ravage each other from jump our first conversation included conversation around pollyanna marie and we had a lot of things in common and he felt like someone that felt safe and was just so hot. My god i was like. I can’t look at you. ’cause words are hard and we both just really wanted to eff each other. A lot and taylor. That’s how we raise them in toronto toronto fantastic and the water and it you know. I shared that i shared. Yeah like i’m having this execution like it’s not. This might just be a one trip thing. We might want to be intentional about starting other trips. You know we’re going to be communicative about our feelings in this and it’s not to say that having sex -cation means that you don’t have any feelings for that person. It doesn’t mean that it’s quote casual sex and i was really honest about that upfront. So people did kind of already have a feel for our relationship a little bit. And i think it’s always more scary thinking about doing it than it was actually doing it. I’m happy that i did. Because i do like to share the positive joyful things my life and he is a huge part of that. I think it’s you know we definitely have conversations around boundaries around what what is okay to share what we don’t feel comfortable sharing. I mean even going to the sex club you know. That was a conversation that i have with him beforehand of. How do you feel about that. You know they might not be saying. At that point. He was anonymous. People didn’t know it was zack. But the people that worked with him in the office that we like recorded those episodes in with you being on the podcast jess like those people at his work followed me on instagram. Then you know learned that you know. He makes me come a lot. It’s it’s always an ongoing conversation boundaries and for me. You know the things i do share i’m like i hope that this is educational. I hope it’s relatable. I hope it helps people feel less alone. I hope it feels empowering for me to stand in my truth an honest authentic vulnerable way so like there’s kind of these levels to check of well. What is the purpose of sharing this. What impact could that have. If i share it how could that make us feel and also you know other people as well so there’s a lot of thought that goes behind it. I definitely my biggest fear was like he’s so hot he’s so hot. And you said you said that he makes you come a lot. So let’s get into the nitty gritty. What what makes him so good for you because people are always asking you know. How can i be a better lover. How can i help my partner to have an orgasm or with know languages. Usually how do i make give them an orgasm but how you know. What is it about him. That makes him a great lover. Yeah so it’s not about technique. I mean it is partially but before technique. Even it’s about creating that emotional and physical safety point number one. If someone doesn’t feel like safe and cared for i’ll be also i’ll speak for myself if i don’t feel safe or cared for valued as a person then as a sexual being. No part of me is gonna feel that it is all right for me to sexually and even experience orgasm or or ejaculation.
00:35:07 – 00:40:12
Whatever so the number one thing to me that makes him. An amazing lover is that i feel cared for. I feel cared for emotionally. I feel cared for mentally spiritually and physically and sexually so knowing that i feel cared for on all those other levels makes sex feel much more like an inviting exciting space. We also very much create like a judgment free zone of sex and maintain like a. I think almost like a commitment to curiosity like lick my armpit and be like how did that feel. And i’m like i don’t know dude a little bit more and we’ll say and i’ll make out my armpit and actually kind of felt good. I wouldn’t have expected that and we’ll laugh about it and you know just continue to communicate throughout it so having that curiosity and that safety to explore allows me to feel comfortable and safe having my body express orgasm like i could be holding myself in is a perfect example of this actually from like two weeks ago you know i. I’d only ever seen this important where the person is like. Dj -ing like wiggle wiggle walk on the clip like a ton or using a toy like a want and the person’s just sitting there like for legs kind of open and then it just like gushes everywhere and i always would see that and be like They’re doing something else like There’s no way that that like they’re just sitting there able to like ejaculate everywhere like thought like no way they’re a sex worker. They know what they’re doing. This is like some kind of performance and weeks ago. He was like. Dj ended up on it and it started to feel like really intense. And usually that’s when i would close up my legs or i would kind of like resituate and like bring him down to make out with me something and in the past. That’s what i’ve done and people would say. Keep your legs open. You know like no like keep going. But i’m just going to be like no i’m okay. And he said that he said keep your legs open. When i started to close them and i recognize in that moment i was like. Oh yeah i was closing my legs. I do that every other time. Like i’m okay. He asked me to keep my legs open. I’m gonna. I trusted him to to walk me through this experience of pleasure that in the past kind of scared me honestly and i can’t my legs open and a minute later. I was like gesine everywhere like literally. Exactly that scene that you’ve seen porn so surprise and we talked about it and like a situation like that. I never experienced with the previous partner. Because i didn’t actually trust and feel safe to allow my body to express and that’s made such a difference with my that makes the makes so much sense especially when you start talking about the emotional side so i often talk about your your core erotic feeling. And how that core rod feeling can vary from person to person and of course everybody wants. Nobody wants to feel actually unsafe. Although of course you know in the context of a safe relationship it can be fun to toy with feelings of being threatened or whatnot but core roddick feeling. You talk about feeling safe. I know that brandon’s core roddick feeling tends to center around being relaxed. Suburban relaxed is tied to some degree to safety and security as well for sure but i think in exploring that emotional roddick connection is so important right. How do you need to feel. And i love that. You pull in the elements of the physical. The emotional the practical. The spiritual the relational. All of those are so important and we don’t spend a ton of time talking about them right. We don’t really explore our values in depth. And so this comes back to what you said a moment ago around ongoing conversations. It’s not like brennan’s been with me. We’ve been together almost twenty years and you. Don’t you barely know about me because i barely know about myself in these areas. No but we really have just scratched the surface and terms of you know my being introspective. My sharing with you and your you know your listening and learning and exploring but you also made reference to the to the conversations that we have during our long drives.
00:40:12 – 00:45:02
And i would agree that whether we’re on a hike run drive we have these conversations and get deep and there’s no judgment. I know that that was a topic. That’s come up a couple of times. And i feel like we can speak openly and not be afraid of what the other person is going to like. I don’t feel like i’m ever being judged. I feel like i can be very honest with you and that strengthens and allows the conversation to go deeper into areas. That i don’t think i’d otherwise be comfortable going to to explore and figure out more about myself. Yeah and when judgment comes up because you know feeling a little bit of judgment can be a natural reaction when you’re uncomfortable with something. I was thinking an interesting space to explore if something set something often you’re you’re like oh that’s awful or that’s grocer that’s deemed too dangerous or that would be the end of the relationship. That’s fine to feel that feeling and then once you’ve may be calmed down in your feeling okay with yourself or okay with partner again to really explore okay. So what is it about this. That makes me so uncomfortable. And sometimes if you really take the time you can dig dig a little deeper into different crevice and and find pleasure in that. Find excitement find curiosity. Sometimes things that turn us off most in in the beginning or upon first consideration end up being like our hottest fantasies. I felt that way over the last couple years to reflect on things that i was really uncomfortable with ten years ago and even though we haven’t done them thinking about them now in allowing myself to kind of go there is is very like it’s erotic and you know the this these principles that you’re talking about right now i i. You could apply to anything like when somebody angers me. It’s like why. Am i really angry about this. So i take a minute and get to the root issue here for just just a second like. Why am i so mad while it’s not about this. It’s about the underlying how feel wronged or whatever it is and then you get down to the layers and make. I’m i make real progress personally. Which is great now tiller your your psychotherapist or your share. A lot about your life here. But i’d love to utilize your skills as well before we let you go with a a question from a listener that i think will be well aligned with your area of expertise so this person rates in to read the whole thing. It’s not too long this one. So it says i love watching dp meaning double penetration porn. I picture my wife as the girl. And i’m one of the guys. It turns me on like crazy. The thought of my wife and me and another guy. We tried at one time with a close male friend and it was great. I want to try it again. But i am really insecure and don’t trust strangers and when i’m done watching and masturbating the urge for that threesome goes away instantly isn’t normal that the urge goes away and should we try an m. Threesome thank you yeah. It’s a great question I i wanna maybe pride a little bit of education here on that feeling going away on that interest in the three some just kind of disappearing with masturbation and that’s part of the arousal cycle. That’s part of our disgust response When we are aroused that disgust response is way lowered right things that we might consider to be off limits or a little gross or not interested in we might feel differently when we are like in the midst of passion and super aroused having whatever kind of sack cities and once you do complete that arousal cycle and you’re kind of coming off of that that high almost it is totally normal to look back at that and be like. Oh actually that. I don’t really feel the same way about that. That’s part of why you know. People often report like just wanted to close their laptop after they ejaculate or orgasm from watching porn because now what they’re on the screen. They’re seeing a very different lens. What is this the while. You’re aroused That disgust response is is lowered. So that doesn’t sound super a normal or whatever normal is these days but It doesn’t sound a natural to lose interest in that when you’re no longer aroused it. Sounds like they did have a great experience the first time around.
00:45:02 – 00:49:23
And if you can recreate that then that sounds fantastic. But it also sounds like there are boundaries around doing this with strangers and kind of what we’ve talked about already around communication and safety is that there might need to be some ongoing conversations. Right there might be Safe spaces where you can find a third person who would be interested who both of you would like and have some of those may be uncomfortable conversations around boundaries so that you can kind of check in with yourself and check that jealousy and check those insecurities. It is also totally. Okay for that to remain a fantasy. It doesn’t have to become a reality at all But it does sound like given that you had that one experience you want more of it so maybe it is. You know revisiting that with that friend if that went well and saying you know. Is that something you’d be interested in doing again. Like i really enjoyed that. Oh how did you feel about it. Where perhaps that is your safe go-to person but there are also communities of people and people that you can meet granted it’s covid so it might be a bit more difficult. I would suggest maybe recommends that you know there might not be ways where you feel comfortable with another person joining but you can also use things like toys to kind of recreate that fantasy and maybe safer way You know where you can use a dildo to help provide that double penetration And that might be something that still gets you off. That s- feels exciting. It’s a little bit different. It’s not the exact fantasy that you’re having But it might it might stimulate you similar way Absolutely if you can talk your way through it and get your mind into it. It sounds like they. They know how to use fantasy. Because they’re saying you know it’s super hot while i’m masturbating and then the urge subsides so i think that’s a a very completes Answer a awful things no no. That’s really great so we really appreciate it. I love chatting with you every time. I following your work. Can you tell us how people can follow and support you. Yeah definitely so. The best place is going to be on instagram. Which is ask tim o. T. a. y. m. o. c. h. a. And i always have to explain this. It’s time oca-. Because i’m a cat lady and my My first cat ever was named ohka. Joe and i had her flak eighteen years. We were superabundance by combined. Our names when i was little to make a nickname for myself and i qualified this because most people think it’s because i’m brown that i’m tame okay now katy cat. Yes because of the cat lady. Not because i’m black. But instagram tame mocha is the best place to find my podcast. Let’s talk about it. The best place to find my patriot which is patriot dot com slash tame. Ohka where i talk about how i do sex. Qna’s i do bachelor and bachelorette breakdowns. And i share a bit of what i’m learning in my phd. Clinical sexology program there as well yeah. Instagram is the best place to kind of find all of those. I’ve got links in my bio for vibrators and porn anti racism work the patriots on and the podcast is all right there. That’s a whole lot of everything. So antiracism work as well as by raiders and they all go hand in hand because sexual justice reproductive. Justice are all tied in with racial justice. And maybe we can discuss that another time. I know you do discuss it on your podcast as well. So thank you so much for joining us. Very much appreciated. Thank you and thank you for listening. Thanks for chatting with me. Today brandon awesome. Always happy to be here. Wherever you’re at have a great week. Make sure to check out. Let’s get checked dot com. You’re listening to the sex with dr jazz podcast. Improve your sex life improve your life.