May 22, 2020
Sex Ed The Musical & Sexual Golden Tickets
Wendy Miller, host of Sex Ed The Musical Podcast, joins us to discuss her experience as the former Head of Production with PlayboyTV. She shares stories from the Playboy set shoots as well as insights from the Under Covers series, which explored the real stories of women from all walks of life. They discuss PlayboyTV’s Swing, the toll TV representations can take on body image and their “Sexual Golden Tickets”. Listen now and learn more!
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This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.
Sex Ed The Musical & Sexual Golden Tickets
00:00:05 – 00:05:11
You’re listening to the sacs with Dr Jess podcast sacks and relationship advice you can use tonight Welcome to the sex with Dr Pye. I’m your co host Brandon. We’re here with my lovely other. Half Dr Jess Hey. Hey we are joined today by my friend. Wendy Miller and Wendy and I met working on playboy. Tv’s swing and Wendy is the host of sex. Ed The musical the is just following you around. I’ve heard Wendy. I can’t get away from it. No matter how hard I try so I think most people know the show swing but I’m sure there are listeners who don’t I O was. This is how I describe it. And it’s your your baby so you can correct me if I’m wrong but it’s basically a reality show about a bunch of seniors living in a house and every weekend we’d bring a new couple who thought they might. WanNa try swinging and I’d introduce them to the group they’d have a little bit of fun overnight and then I’d come back and do some debriefing you know. Tv therapy with them to think I hit the mark. Did I miss anything? You absolutely the only thing you missed was a cock ring. Tossed one of our favorite item. We need to talk about your podcasts. So who met working on playboy you have worked for everyone from the all the big networks to Oprah and now you’re still in television production correct. That is correct. I’m working for a another network right now which I don’t want to talk about because It would be very scandalous but Suffice it to say I am still working in mainstream television. Yes yes and definitely not in anything to do with sex anymore. You’re you’re basically working at the opposite playboy flavored one hundred eighty degree different by the way. That’s one of my favorite things that people get wrong when they say. Oh I’ve completely changed. I did a three sixty well then so I did at one eighty and I’m working at a place that is absolutely no sex whatsoever and that’s totally fine But I’m still doing my podcast. Which is all about sex. And I’m podcast and just you probably Brennan you to. You probably encountered this a lot. People WanNa know am I normal? What is normal am I normal? Is this way my normal? Everybody’s sort of judging themselves against this ideal of normal do you encounter that a lot. I definitely feel like People WanNa know what normal is and that goes without saying sex money relationship kids vacation you name it. Yeah everybody wants to be within the range of normal but at the top. If that makes sense well I think that a lot of people are worried that their choices their lifestyle. What they’ve experienced. You know what turns them on? Whatever is abnormal and they think that may be something wrong with them so I decided to do these series of episodes called undercovers and I reached out through facebook through some friends of mine and I wanted to interview women. I hadn’t I knew nothing about in. This was like the opposite of Terry Gross. I did know pre-production I did know pre interview. I didn’t WanNa talk about where they lived. How they looked what their jobs were. Anything that you use to sort of judge. People in advance categorize them. I wanted to take off the table. And of course this is a very small sampling. This is not like the Kinsey survey where I’ve talked like thousands of people. I actually talked to ten women and I got their answers from the same series of questions and I was shocked at how much we all have in common and so I was hoping that maybe I could share some of that information with you. If you guys are interested. I love this social experiment and I’d love to hear the questions. You went through in the insights that you gained. Yeah so I interviewed ten women and their average age is thirty eight so the youngest one was thirty. One and the oldest was sixty and six of them identify as strictly heterosexual one hundred percent heterosexual and four of them are bisexual or fluid. Which I thought was pretty interesting because for women. It’s you know you could be bar sexual right. It’s like every every woman is two drinks away from being a lesbian I think is kind of the joke But for a Lotta these women the women who are sexually fluid or the women who identifies as bisexual half of them to them knew it right away and two of them were just kind of like. Oh Yeah that seems fun which seems to be much more common with women than it is with guys because of you know stigmatizing gayness with men and and all of that it’s different with women and it’s a lot safer and it’s a lot less reckless to hook up with a girl doesn’t really mean anything but for a guy suddenly like oh whatever so yeah and we need to. We need to absolutely bust. That so much of this is through the straight male gaze the fantasy that you know women make out for them right. That’s that’s a whole other story. I think we did an episode on mystifying male male bisexuality in the past because if we gave men the permission that we gave women in this realm we’d see a lot more men identifying as fluid as wall or bisexual as well.
00:05:11 – 00:10:00
I think so if guys could just admit it and not even really care about it. Also another thing that I’ve noticed this. I personally believe that straight guys are the next photo matte no offense but I think that their insatiable desire to see women hooking up with each other is only gonNA show women that they can hook up with each other and have a lot of fun and they don’t even need men eliminate themselves. There are certain species. Now that are reproducing without any men it without any male and I think that you guys are photo at. I’m just saying right now. You Might WanNa cool out on the girl on girl because the more girls who hook up with other women. We’re going to be like. Oh that’s actually really fun and I’m not going to get pregnant and you whatever else so I’m just putting that out there very untied. Think I think we should put out a photo Matt for the Canadian listeners. And the international listeners so they were an American chain of photo development drive through kiosks. That obviously no longer exist because nobody develops their film. There’s a million things like it. I mean again staying in the film thing it’d be Kodak Film Are Polaroid. Jesse is having a resurgence What is something in in Canada that has sort of vanish? That used to be director? What was what. What was a big thing. There that has now completely vanished positive Canadian. Us relations okay. Let’s go. Let’s go back to Wendy though. I’m really interested in the in the ten questions that you asked in your undercovers series. She’s a little more than ten questions but I catalogued a few of them. Were I really saw some commonalities? The first question I asked them is what was the first thing you remember. Learning about sex. And shockingly most of them learned that if you get pregnant if you have sex you will get pregnant and you will get aids and die. So there’s a Lotta things connected. There ton of shame and scared scare. Tactics is the first thing they remember learning that it absolutely was scandalous. And if you had sex you’re probably going to get an STI and you’re probably going to die and get pregnant at the same time. Once and a lot of this is religious based a lot of this came from very observant religious parents and so that was something that I thought was troubling because I didn’t release slice and dice this data all the way but there does seem to be a connection between people who were raised with the most threats about sex also had the higher higher number of partners and whether or not that’s a bad thing or good thing that doesn’t matter but I did not notice a correlation between threats and more people have sex with and it’s just like anything else if you tell your kids all day. Whatever you do don’t eat Broccoli. Do not eat Broccoli. Don’t touch the Broccoli. Your kids are Gonna eat tons of Broccoli. We talked about this before. It’s like the one thing you tell people you can’t have like the white. Don’t think about the White White Bear. That’s all you’re going to think about. So if you tell. People don’t have second on of sex on of sex what’s going to happen. Jesse knows better than anybody right. We’re just reinforcing. You can’t ban thoughts. I was recently on your podcast and we were talking about this and folks you go check out your podcast of course So that’s that’s really interesting and unsurprising to anyone working in sexuality because we spend so much of our time helping and encouraging and facilitating the relinquishment of sexual shame. So what what else did you learn from these people? I learned that these women were told by their mothers not to have children and not get pregnant and I wonder a message that sends to your daughter. All of these people were mothers. Not all these Eight of these eight of these people had children that were female and almost all of them were told by their mothers. Don’t have sex and don’t get pregnant and I wonder if that’s creating some sort of problem down the line with people who were afraid to have sex because they think something might happen and and and also not worth while because my mother got pregnant and she’s telling me don’t get pregnant but my mother got pregnant with me so I wonder if people are drawing a connection to that I’m not sure Yeah that makes me think about generational differences to that. You know back then. It wasn’t really a choice. Either because of a lack of reproductive justice and supports and technologies or because your birthday or because you just felt you had to have a kid right so. I don’t have a kid I know Wendy. You have a star kid an amazing if I could have your kid I’d take your is. She is she on the market She’s not on the market. But you just want national medal for novel. She wrote so she she doesn’t talk to me anymore.
00:10:00 – 00:15:07
I’m just a TV writer. What else are you working on? Mom Mom how many of your novels have a national gold medal from on? Okay well then you talk to you. I’ve got a call my agent but I do think it’s interesting. The pressure that there was on generations before. Have KIDS NOT THAT? That pressure doesn’t exist today because people give me a lot of crap about the fact that. I don’t have a kid and we want to adopt in the fact that I don’t want to have one out my vagina freaks. A lot of people out Because they think I’m an oven but do you think there a generational differences. Do you think that it’s may be different for younger people that they’re not being the not receiving those messages in the same way? It’s absolutely different for younger people than for older people and another thing that I noticed. Generation generation only is that younger women had fewer metoo instances eight of the ten women that. I spoke to had me to sit circumstances and you’d be hard pressed to find any woman. Basically over thirty five right but at and some of them were actually full-on sexual assault and all of those women blame themselves and never went to the police. But with the two youngest women the two youngest women thirty one and thirty three they were both in groups of girls that really protected each other and they never it was sort of like the army. No Man left behind so no matter what they had a game plan going into college going into clubs whatever were they would never take their off each other. And as a result in this particular instance I know that the sexual assault rate and colleges is ridiculous. But in these particular instances these two women were the only two out of ten who did not have any history of sexual assault or any sort of non-consent moments and that was very interesting. The older that they were the more likely they were to have multiple multiple sexual assaults or multiple problems and felt that as if they could do nothing about it and I wonder if that has to do with a shift from the private sphere to the public spare right it used to be something that you bore as an individual burden whereas now it’s something that we’re talking about more openly and. I think it’s interesting that they go into spaces with game plans which is great and at the same time can we just please dismantle the systems that require us to go and look out for one another right? Let’s dismantle the systems that make it okay or normalized even some of the the behavior that isn’t necessarily assault but it’s still harassing and intimidating right and for US guys to get involved to an end to stand behind that but into stand behind these these movements and and support other men willing to speak up because I honestly man I. I think it’s a joke. Like how little we do to support. And that’s not GonNa Change until the men actually get behind this. It’s not GonNa Change. Yeah I agree with you. And so aside from the shame with which they were raised The rate of assault and harassment were there any like positive findings I think the most positive findings that I that a lot of these women came to was that later in life. They all realized their sexual value. And you know you’ve heard of the orgasm What’S NOT THE ORGASM GAP? But there’s like the. There’s an oral sex and ballots right where men expect oral sex and a lot of women feel that there’s something wrong with them and I talked to women who felt I talked to a woman who felt that because she didn’t look like women in magazines she didn’t deserve oral sex or a lot of women who just thought. I think I taste bad and I think I smell bad and I said to them. Did anyone say that to you? And they all said no but for some reason they carried that around for years and years until they finally started advocating for their own sexual pleasure. And what is it betty? Dodson says you have to learn how to run the eff so these women with time finally started to advocate for themselves every single one of them and I thought that was spectacular because in the beginning many of them felt that they were just unworthy to receive pleasure and that it was they were very presentational with their sex lives and they were just there for the other person’s pleasure and it took on average about ten years after their first sexual encounter for these women to start feeling that they can advocate for their own pleasure now one girl after she lost her virginity and I wish even use that term after she had sex for the first time she sent an email to the guy telling him exactly what he needed to do to give pleasure. How was this sixteen and she is? She is She is poly-amorous. She has she has a primary and then she has to sex partners and she is absolutely the most fascinating case in this case because like a just a week after having sex with this boy.
00:15:08 – 00:20:02
She sent him a note. Saying here’s what I want you to do. And the day that they were supposed have sex for the first time she thought it would be fun to open the door totally naked. They were to friends house parents town. She opened the door totally naked for this guy coming over for them to have sex for the first time and freaked out. He absolutely unraveled right. Because could you imagine being a sixteen year old boy in your girlfriend opens the door stark naked? And so but she was. She had a plan she stuck to it. She had rules and she was very much about. This is what I need for my pleasure. And this is what is required from you and her communication skills were so high as a teenager that now she is poly-amorous and she has exceptionally high communication skills. Because she knew from the very beginning that monogamy was not gonNa work out for her and her husband and she have all these rules and they worked it out and she gets what she wants when she wants it but not as a selfish person. Make sure that everything. Is You know. Consensual and fair. Whatever but I was really happy to hear that almost all of these women with time finally realized I’m worthy I deserve pleasure and it’s my time now and I really loved hearing that it sounds like all of this is is tied to self worth not just sexual self worth but self worth so. How did how did these women find their way? Was there a turning point where they realized that they were worthy or were? They realized that it was time to speak up. It’s so interesting. One woman was married to this guy. they were teenagers when they started dating. They got married two years into their marriage. He asked her she wanted to have sex. She said No. They went to sleep later that night. She woke up in the middle of the night. She was not wearing pants and she had semen inside of her and so she confronted her husband and she said what the hell happened and he said I don’t know but she realized that he slipped her. Some sort of drug and he assaulted her in the middle of the night without her consent. She stayed with him for another twelve years because she was. She felt that she was trapped. And I think a lot of people and I don’t mean to I don’t mean to only focus on the negative stuff here because there are a lot of pilots at positive things to come out of this but it took twelve years to realize that she does not deserve that. She deserves better than that. She left him is in a second marriage once again. And this is weird. Everybody is in a second marriage is in a great second marriage. Some people are in their first marriages. They’re fine but the people who got out of a bad marriage and then remarried are so much happier because they learned how to advocate for what they wanted the first marriage they were probably too young. A lot of them got married because every pregnant or because they were just young and they thought it was a thing to do. But really it’s that second marriage getting out spending time with yourself finding out what you want finding out that you deserve to have pleasure. You deserve to ask for what you want and get it and to find the courage to do that. Has paid off for all of them. And I was really encouraged by that. You Know I. I make the same observations around second marriages that people do seem to have worked out. The data doesn’t necessarily reflect what you and I are saying though The divorce rate is higher for second marriages which surprises me. But I again think that staying together is not a good measure of a relationship. Just because you haven’t got divorced doesn’t mean that you’re happy. And when you tell a heartbreaking story like that about being drugged and assaulted by the person that is supposed to look out for you and love you the most. It reminds me that we just need to start talking about sex more because I think the silence and the shame around just talking about sex and relationships is what allows these dangerous relationships to exist behind closed doors. So how how do people start speaking up like? How did you get these women to open up? Well I think that a a part of this again. I’m not a sociologist. I’m not Brown. I can’t just look at this data but what I did notice. Is that most of the women who are in really bad. Marriages and really bad relationships were raised with very negative education around sex. So the women who just whose parents just kind of left you know. Where did I come from books? Around the house or Judith krantz novels or whatever. They didn’t have as many problems as the people who were raised with no sex education. Now just this is something you could probably talk about for hours and hours and hours but there does seem to be a direct correlation between telling women and young girls that sexist terrible and your body is dirty and then them making choices once they become sexually active that continue to reinforce that yeah that makes sense and the data supports that for for all genders if we don’t provide information or if we provide shame based information or we focus only as on abstinence as their sole option. We see that they are less likely to act.
00:20:03 – 00:25:03
A healthy behaviors like setting boundaries are talking about what they want or using condoms or even delaying sex and then the other really important pieces that comprehensive sex education talking about sex including pleasure does nothing to hasten the onset of sexual activity when we teach kids about sex. They don’t run out and have it. Because it’s a natural inclination that people are drawn to it in in different ways at varying with varying intensities at different ages but yeah I think this is just a reminder that the costs of a lacking sexual health education system are not just felt in your teen years but persist into Your Twenties Thirties. Forties and beyond. Yeah it definitely. There’s definitely a correlation and that that to me just really reinforced. How this abstinence in this fear based sex education is not. It’s not helping anyone. It’s creating some real problems that are just could last a lifetime now. I did actually have some fun questions in here There’s a woman that I interviewed. Who and and I talked to women who had one sexual partner their whole life and another woman who had one hundred and forty five sexual partners her whole life and each of these women you know. Each one is fine. But the woman who’s had sex with only one partner She dated this guy when she was in high school. They had sex. I got married Blah Blah. She has the probably the healthiest sex life of everyone on this list. Because she and her husband are communicating constantly. They have sex twice a week and I asked everyone to create their sexual golden ticket and this woman said that when she reveals to people that she’s only had sex with one man her entire life she gets reversed slut shamed so everyone is like what only one. Where’s the woman who has had one hundred and forty five partners? I don’t think she goes around blasting that but woman with one partner gets the most gets a ton of shame which I thought was very interesting but back to the thank so sexual golden ticket so I asked each of these people to create their fantasy their sexual fantasy. If you could have anything you want and there will be no repercussions. You won’t get in trouble. Nobody’s feelings will be hurt. You can create the ultimate sexual fantasy. The woman is only had sex with one pertinent with one person with her husband. All she did was set up what the weather was like. She said I WANNA be. I WANNA be outside not on the beach because of the sand. I want to be sunset. It’s a spring day. We’re having a picnic. I’m with my husband. Basically sex with you know regular sex with him. That’s what I want. I said you could have anything. Basically you know you just chose like the weatherman report said. No that’s what I want. Fantastic another person another person. Who had a lot of difficulty convincing men to have sex with her until she finally found a pickup line. That said I’ve never had an orgasm. And then guys would have sex with her. She basically invented that pickup line because they feel the challenge right there feel the challenge and otherwise men were not interested in her that For whatever reason hearst her sexual golden ticket was she wanted to own her own sex club and should go there with her second husband and know that everyone. There has consented in advance to me being in their sexual scenarios so she has a sex club and everyone there has already said. Yep You can have sex with us. Yep You’RE GONNA have sex with me. That’s her sexual golden ticket. That’s what you will anything Yeah another woman watched a half and this one I can tell you from first person experience very easy. She wants to have a sensual massage. Like with a happy ending from another woman as well. That’s really easy to attain that. Your golden ticket. That’s really not that hard But that’s what she wants more than anything and she identifies as one hundred percent straight Another couple that already has sex two three times week Mary twice and very happy she just wants to wake up in a house with no kids have sex all day be naked. Feed her husband. Go out to dinner and then come home and have more sex just the whole sex sex naked and food. That was her entire thing with her husband Another person wants to go to the Greek isles and have sex an infinity pool with either her husband or the guy who played Superman Henry. Cavill cavill sat on a name. He played superman. So that’s that’s that’s her thing maybe three with the two of them another woman wants to have a threesome with a man and a woman and I later saw a picture of her. She’s quite stunning. And I was like I can think of thousand people right now. Who Happily looking for a Unicorn? Who would make that happen? But the rule was it had to be her boyfriend so So she wanted. She wanted to be with a guy and have a unicorn join them and that was her sexual golden ticket and to me.
00:25:03 – 00:30:03
It was interesting. How many of these things are so completely attainable and others are just kind of maybe a little more a little bit more out there but I mean if you could come up with a sexual golden ticket with with knowing that wouldn’t offend your partner and I don’t mean to put you on the spot because I know you’re with your partner but would your sexual golden ticket include your partner? Oh mine would for sure. Because he carries all the bags to everywhere we go instead of all carrying the bay. Because I probably would bring a lot of shoes sexual. Fantasy require a lot of shoes. If it’s too hot I am the weather end. That fans her right so I mean you gotTa keep temperature on point yet. You know what one thing. That’s really important to me like when we when I think about the emotional underpinnings of sexes. I like to feel safe and comfortable and I feel really safe and comfortable with you so I don’t know what part of the sexual part you’d be in but I’d want you there. I’d be there everything great Darach. Let’s keep going how you yeah. I want to hear this. Yeah I don I mean mine. Probably sounds pretty. Stereotypical like I think you know. Perhaps another woman involved the I I actually. I’m not just saying this because I’m here with Jess but I do think about you being involved here. I never get a break. I am doing. Watch her we. Why are you getting another woman? If I still have to do stuff somebody bags baggage for people. They travel pretty lately. I think for me the. There’s a very stark difference between fantasy and reality because I think fantasy everything’s great. Nobody says something that bothers you And it’s not. It’s not awkward after where you know unless somebody has spelled out the terms of engagement you know like how long are we staying after or would we doing and this and that You know fantasies great is just go infinity pool in the Greek isles. And there’s somebody else and then we do our thing and then I guess in in that particular case Superman flies away and say anything because he dumb. I don’t know you know. Superman has to go away. Superman’s find faulk. But you to marry him. I thinking I mean I think there are two different ways. That people fantasize I think some of US fantasize but we need some sort of grounding to reality to really get into it like I think a lot of really logical Number type people like numbers thinkers tend to think that way. Where like okay? This is really hot but there needs to be some grounding to reality to get me off. And then there’s some people who are more creative thinkers more artistic types who are able to really fantasize Beyond the immediate realm and I don’t have research to back that up but I just noticed it may even have to do with semantics In terms of you know what is a fantasy is a fantasy something I actually want to do or is it just something. I can dream up because I noticed that some people and when you may have noticed this in your interviews that some people have real difficulty even getting their fantasies. They’re they’re so tied to reality and that’s okay too like the unlimited sex partners in a sex club isn’t necessarily a hotter fantasy than sex with my husband with a son under a sunset. It’s all it’s all relative and I’m sure that’s what you picked up from these conversations. Oh absolutely it’s all relative. There’s no there’s no right answer. There’s no wrong answer. And that’s what I was. Just that’s why I was asking all these questions because I really wanted to find out what people were thinking at what age they started masturbating. At what time you know what? Who was the first celebrity crush this great question Corey Heym from licensed to drive was one and I’m too young. Someone a Nick Carter from the backstreet boys. Someone woman said. I’ve never had Johnny Depp Dempsey than some boy called rider strong Who is on boy? Meets World Zack Morris? But my favorite was on Morris Leonard. Nimoy Nice really into Star Trek Vulcans and so let her knee boy was her was her thing and it’s what he can do with his hands. I don’t know well what was interesting. Is One of. The women had a picture of a heartthrob boy on her on her bedroom wall that she was in love with but then she learned about the she learned. She was taught that their shame associated with sex so from that moment on she would have to go into the closet to change her clothes because she didn’t want the poster of the boy on the wall to see her naked. Wow these these messages really. They cut deep. They really do and they stay with us for so long. I always say that you know if we could just start talking about sexual health from multiple perspectives from a young age and from cross cultural perspectives.
00:30:03 – 00:33:14
You could put people like me at a business. I mean I and that’s my dream right. That’s really like I got into this because I was a teacher and I saw the cost of lacking sexual health education system and the information that you uncovered in your undercovers series really reflects that we have to go wendy but before we let you go. I can you please share your sexual golden ticket. I think bisexual golden ticket. And you know I’m a writer and a producer so I get granular with details and sometimes it becomes a boehner killer. Because I’ll just be like wait a minute. What kind of what kind of furniture? What does that bad is at a Herman Miller bad or is that like I will effing derail myself with details but I do think that my sexual golden ticket and all due respect to my editor and husband of thirty years my sexual golden ticket takes place in the late fifties in a very beautiful penthouse apartment and I am with the fictional characters That played were played by Jon. Hamm and Christina Hendricks and madman and it is a it is a period threesome not period like menstrual period. And I hook up with both of them for the world’s greatest meant century modern threesome and My hair look spectacular the entire time so I think that is my sexual golden ticket and you know what I think. I’m just going to change things up and my husband shows up and then it becomes a four way and then as really really fun but I’m actually lying. He doesn’t show up. It’s a three way with John. And he carries your bags. Homa I show up and care everybody’s bags have like four pairs of shoes and I only wear one of ’em capsule wardrobe type so all all of my clothes could fitna tote bag so that would be. That would be it for me. A mid-century Charles and Ray eames furniture everywhere. Somewhere in Manhattan Beautiful Penthouse with Jon. Hamm and Christina Hendricks. That’s it in character now soon as you went to nineteen mid nineteen you know like one thousand nine hundred fifty s like. I’m like way more than I would have ever imagined get granular before I get off. Do I have to because I will just get distracted? I’ll get distracted. It’s like opposite. Grass cloth on the walls. Wait a minute what’s on. I mean seriously. It’s a problem for may might be penalties like I said Walnut chairs. Not Teak aptly. Thank you for understanding. I do. I do I get it. Well I I love that. I’m I’m really fascinated by these series and encouraged people to make sure they go. Check OUT SEX. Ed The musical podcast as well as the undercover series. Thanks so much for chatting with us. Thank you for having me you guys. I really loved the work you do. And I’m so grateful to be Friends of yours and to be on your show. Thank you we. We feel lucky to have you folks. Thanks so much for tuning in today. Appreciate your ongoing support. Please share like subscribe if you are enjoying this and we’ll be back next week with a whole new episode. Thanks so much. You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Just podcast improve your sex life improve your life.